Musical Education

I don't think i'm the only guy here to try and find out when Brian or Stray Cats released a song, to trace it's roots. Even before the internet, I found Wild Saxophone was a copy of That Mellow saxophone by Roy Montrell, Gonna Ball was aon old Doo Wop song from The Wheels called, Let's Have A Ball, and Fishnet Stockings was Bop-bop-a-doo-wop by (i think) Bob Luman.

So, why don't we all pool our findings and maybe, we can trace the originals or original idea's, of where Brian's influences and/or songs came from????

Can ANYONE (Tommy!) confirm the rumour from the 80's, that Crawl Up and Die was written FOR The Stray Cats by the Feli brothers??? ( It is credited to them on the first album, but is originally a song called 'Please Give Me Something')

Mikey That Bottle Down

Hey guys

50 people ahev checked out ths thread and no respondees!! Did i do something bad??? C'mon everybody, i'm really hoping to find out something i didn't know... lol

Mikey Escariot

Hey Mikey,
you do make a good point, al ot of what he does can be derivative, but I love the way he makes thing sweeter with his subtlety's. Check out this link below which, I think, refers to the kind of thing you are talking about.......




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUO1h3nqIjo&feature=related

FDR8 wrote:

Hey Mikey,
you do make a good point, al ot of what he does can be derivative, but I love the way he makes thing sweeter with his subtlety's. Check out this link below which, I think, refers to the kind of thing you are talking about.......




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUO1h3nqIjo&feature=related

Hey FDR8,

That is a great insight into stripping down where Brian got the idea for Stray cat Strut, but I'm more talking about the actual records that influenced him. You see, whilst we all feel that Brian is a very giving person (and he IS) He never talks about specific songs and what inlfuenced him for them, and that interests me. I accidentally heard Let's Have A Ball by the Wheels in the Camden Palace back in '84 and I remember thinking... wow! THAT is Gonna Ball by the Stray Cats, and i thought it was an original. Then my bandmates told me about Look At That Cadillac and said that the lyric 'i got a a job down at the liqor store' was in fact the same melody and almost same lyric as ' i saw Fanny down by the liqor store' from an earlier song (which i have never found the roots of) now that got me digging back, and i found bop Bop a doo Bop, whcih is fishnet Stockin's. Now, i also know (well, i don't know Brian, but he's a logical guy) so i know that he's not gonna be secretive about stealing parts of songs. In his own words, he says 'you find yourself writing a song and thinking you've heard it before,then realise.. ohoh, i'm writing Blueberry Hill, oh well, i'll call it Raspberry hill or somethin'.

I bought an album called Risque Blues and one of the songs had a sax solo (can't remember which it was) and it was the EXACT same solo as one of Brian's guitar solo's... Which tells me that he stole (dunno what other word to use, but i mean it in a good way) some sax riffs and adapted them to guitar. Did you know that Chuck Berry's trademark riff is actually johnnie johnson piano riff adapted to guitar? Yep Chuck STOLE it from his pianist and it became his main trademark, but Johnnie came up with it.

I really would love to hear from some guys, or even BRIAN!!! about the origination of SOME of the songs.

Love

Mikey Holland Dozier Holland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUO1h3nqIjo&feature=related[/quote]

BTW. How can a teenage guy from Massapequa come up with an augmented scale that shouldn't fit a song.. but it works (Stray Cat Strut) THAT has always amazed me bout Brian and is what has always made me believe he is one step ahead of the bunch..

He's talked about people calling him up on stage to play Rock this town and then realising it's not a simple turnaround. THAT has happened to me too. i don't profess to know too much about music, but it's a really well written song, and NOT stolen from anywher i've found in the last 30 years. An open 'G' riff then the song is in 'D'. Whilst i'm on one, here's another one. Too Hip..In the solo, he plays an open 'G' pull of, but makes it open, so you can hear the open 'E'...

Damn! I wish I knew more about music, cos this all blows me away.

'Baby Don't take My Whisky 'way from me' - Mikey Wynonie Harris

I have to believe that somewhere in Lee, Brian, or Jim's record collection was the famous "Imperial Rockabillies" LP. It has had a re-release on CD. It had Lew Williams' "Bop Bop a Doo Bop" and Bill Allen's "Please Give Me Something" (Crawl Up and Die.) The Rumblejetts performed a great cover of "Please Give Me Something" when they opened for Stray Cats in Kansas City last summer. Imperial Rockabillies also had The Strikes' "If You Can't Rock Me," the version most closely resembling Brian's cover/"original" composition. Many of these tunes can be found on the "Red, Hot, and Rockabilly" series as well. Additionally, the Burnette Brothers and Ricky Nelson were distributed by Imperial, I believe, so you have "Baby Blue Eyes" (which Stray Cats never claimed to have written) and "My One Desire."

There was a Japanese compilation called Stray Cat's Classics. It's on the P-Vine label, and was released in
1992. It is a one-stop shop for Stray Cats' influences, from songs they
covered, to songs Brian altered. Here's the bountiful track listing:

1. Peter Gunn / Henry Mancini - This song's inclusion puzzles me. Did the Cats play it live or something?
2. Bop Bop Ba Doo Bop / Lew Williams - Yup, Fishnet Stockings
3. Ubangi Stomp / Warren Smith
4. Jeanie, Jeanie, Jeanie / Eddie Cochran
5. Rock Crazy Baby / Art Adams - They say this is what Rock This Town was based on. Maybe. Maybe not.
6. My One Desire / Rick Nelson
7. Every Time I Hear That Mellow Saxophone / Roy Montrell - Wild Saxophone
8. Baby Blue Eyes / Johnny Burnette Trio
9. Wasn't That Good? / Wynonie Harris
10. Rock Therapy / Johnny Burnette Trio
11. Race With the Devil / Gene Vincent
12. One Hand Loose / Charlie Feathers
13. Beautiful Delilah / Chuck Berry
14. Everybody's Movin' / Glenn Glenn - Everybody Needs Rock-n-Roll
15. Slip, Slip, Slippin' In / Eddie Bond
16. You Can't Hurry Love / The Supremes
17. The Race Is On / George Jones
18. Sweet Love On My Mind / Johnny Burnette Trio
19. Cruisin' / Gene Vincent
20. Somethin' Else / Eddie Cochran
21. Summertime Blues / Eddie Cochran
22. Blue Suede Shoes / Carl Perkins - Possibly referencing the Cats with Johnny Halliday and Carl Perkins
23. Oh Boy / Buddy Holly
24. Foggy Mountain Breakdown / Flatt and Scruggs - a live staple in the early 90s
25. Be Bop a Lula - Gene Vincent
26. Mystery Train - Elvis Presley

It's by no means complete, but it does give you a headstart on a lot of great music!

Tip of the Iceberg-a-billy

[quote="rickabilly"]I have to believe that somewhere in Lee, Brian, or Jim's record collection was the famous "Imperial Rockabillies" LP.

Yeah I agree Rickabilly.

I have that album, and i swore Brian got Get It Off Your Mind from there, but after checking, it's not there... unno where I heard that song then, cos I never really collected old Rockabilly. Well, not the purist stuff. I have all the Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, Charlie Rich, Wynonie Harris..yadda yadda yadda, but only a few compilations of the purist stuff.

I also have that Japanese compilation release of the 'Cat's original recordings.

Just try saying Mikey with saying Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm x

Can"t help falling in love = Memphis Boy!.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJwIHWILW-c

MEMPHISSUN wrote:

Can"t help falling in love = Memphis Boy!.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJwIHWILW-c

God bless The KING!!!!! T.C.B.!!!!

PRETTY BABY,Mr. Gene Vincent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIYIo6f8j0k

...and all the album "ORIGINAL COOL" !

I didn't mean to derail this thread into a "cover tunes" thread. Obviously, Original Cool was an album of cover songs, and I think most of the songs that are covers are well-known to fans. There's no need to point out that Can't Help Falling in Love was a cover of an Elvis song, for example (although that was a sweet link!)

I think what Mikey was getting at was which "original" Cats compositions were highly derived from another source. We're not accusing anyone of plagiarism or anything. It's just that there is a certain thrill one gets from hearing these "inspirations" for the first time. I can't speak for Mikey, but I'd like to compile a list of songs credited to Setzer, Phantom, and/or Rocker that were heavily "under the influence" of other records.

Here's what we have so far:

Bop Bop a Doo Bop - Lew Williams / Fishnet Stockings
Please Give Me Something - Bill Allen / Crawl Up and Die
Let's Have a Ball - The Wheels / Gonna Ball
Everytime I Hear That Mellow Saxophone - Roy Montrell / Wild Saxophone
Everybody's Movin' - Glen Glenn / Everybody Needs Rock-n-Roll

And this one, I'm not convinced about but I'll list it anyway:

Rock Crazy Baby - Art Adams / Rock This Town

And of course, Brian borrows from himself, too:

Boys Having Babies - Bloodless Pharoahs / Storm the Embassy
Radiation Ranch - Brian Setzer / Drive Like Lightning (Crash Like Thunder)

Again, there is no criticism or outrage here. There are plenty of songs that artists adapted, (especially in the 50s) and claimed for their own. I believe that sometimes an artist is not even aware they are doing it. I find it fascinating, this musical archeological expedition.

Here Come 'Ol Flattop-a-billy

Been an Elvis fan!!!.

I'm no expert, but my best guess is that Rock this town came from a sort of obscure Elvis song called Paralyzed. Same key, same chord progression, including that big nasty II chord. The only difference being Paralyzed IV based bridge while Rock this town has none.

cheers
g

Bigbassape wrote:

I'm no expert, but my best guess is that Rock this town came from a sort of obscure Elvis song called Paralyzed. Same key, same chord progression, including that big nasty II chord. The only difference being Paralyzed IV based bridge while Rock this town has none.

cheers
g

Please please please don't take thisw the wrong way, but. Paralyzed is a great boogie song, but Rock This Town is a little more complex. It's in D, but the intro is G and it has other off beat quirks also. It's the one song that sounds like it's so easy to play, until you actually try. there are few songs that are like that. But how great to write a song that, on hearing it, sounds easy to play, musicians both accomplished and novice alike. But, when you actually try and play it, you realise just how complex a progression it is.


Dr Mikey Winston O'Boogie

No offense taken, but I have been playing for over 20 years and I can and do play both songs. Aside from changing a couple of accents and adding some passing chords, the progression is the same. In fact, when my band did Paralyzed tonight, I played Lee' bass part just for kicks, and with the exception of the bridge it sat perfectly well. Our guitar player is actually the one who brought the similarities between the two songs to my attention a couple of years ago.

Paralyzed: Intro- I-I-I-I I-I-V-V I-I-IV-II I
Rock This Town: Intro- I-I-I-I I-I-V-V I-I-IV-II I
(rock this town does have the 1-3-4-4#-5 lick over the I section and adds the accent on II but its still the same progression)

I'm in no way bashing mr. setzer's writing, the melody is all his, and the execution makes it stand out on its own, but the similarities in the chord structure are undeniable.


cheers
g

rickabilly wrote:

I didn't mean to derail this thread into a "cover tunes" thread. Obviously, Original Cool was an album of cover songs, and I think most of the songs that are covers are well-known to fans. There's no need to point out that Can't Help Falling in Love was a cover of an Elvis song, for example (although that was a sweet link!)

I think what Mikey was getting at was which "original" Cats compositions were highly derived from another source. We're not accusing anyone of plagiarism or anything. It's just that there is a certain thrill one gets from hearing these "inspirations" for the first time. I can't speak for Mikey, but I'd like to compile a list of songs credited to Setzer, Phantom, and/or Rocker that were heavily "under the influence" of other records.

Here's what we have so far:

Bop Bop a Doo Bop - Lew Williams / Fishnet Stockings
Please Give Me Something - Bill Allen / Crawl Up and Die
Let's Have a Ball - The Wheels / Gonna Ball
Everytime I Hear That Mellow Saxophone - Roy Montrell / Wild Saxophone
Everybody's Movin' - Glen Glenn / Everybody Needs Rock-n-Roll

And this one, I'm not convinced about but I'll list it anyway:

Rock Crazy Baby - Art Adams / Rock This Town

And of course, Brian borrows from himself, too:

Boys Having Babies - Bloodless Pharoahs / Storm the Embassy
Radiation Ranch - Brian Setzer / Drive Like Lightning (Crash Like Thunder)

Again, there is no criticism or outrage here. There are plenty of songs that artists adapted, (especially in the 50s) and claimed for their own. I believe that sometimes an artist is not even aware they are doing it. I find it fascinating, this musical archeological expedition.

Here Come 'Ol Flattop-a-billy

oops,sorry,understand!

"Can't help falling in love" was "Plaisir d'amour" by GIOVANNI BATTISTA MARTINI (1706-1784),our italian composer!

rickabilly wrote:

I think what Mikey was getting at was which "original" Cats compositions were highly derived from another source. We're not accusing anyone of plagiarism or anything. It's just that there is a certain thrill one gets from hearing these "inspirations" for the first time. I can't speak for Mikey, but I'd like to compile a list of songs credited to Setzer, Phantom, and/or Rocker that were heavily "under the influence" of other records.

Here's what we have so far:

Bop Bop a Doo Bop - Lew Williams / Fishnet Stockings
Please Give Me Something - Bill Allen / Crawl Up and Die

Crawl Up and Die isn't credited to Setzer/Phantom/Rocker, like Mikey said it is B&J Feli ??

Banksy

Banksy wrote:

rickabilly wrote:

I think what Mikey was getting at was which "original" Cats compositions were highly derived from another source. We're not accusing anyone of plagiarism or anything. It's just that there is a certain thrill one gets from hearing these "inspirations" for the first time. I can't speak for Mikey, but I'd like to compile a list of songs credited to Setzer, Phantom, and/or Rocker that were heavily "under the influence" of other records.

Here's what we have so far:

Bop Bop a Doo Bop - Lew Williams / Fishnet Stockings
Please Give Me Something - Bill Allen / Crawl Up and Die

Crawl Up and Die isn't credited to Setzer/Phantom/Rocker, like Mikey said it is B&J Feli ??

Banksy

Excellent! The plot thickens. So where do the new lyrics come from? I hadn't heard the rumor Mikey mentioned before, about the Feli Bros (who are also credited on Please Give Me Something) writing them specifically for the Cats. That story, if true, would be every bit as fascinating as the one behind "A Peroxide Blonde in a Hopped Up Model Ford."

This thread is starting to remind of the great George Harrison tune "This Song," written after he was sued for writing a song, "My Sweet Lord" with the same chord changes as the Chiffons "He's So Fine":

This song has nothing tricky about it
This song ain't black or white, and as far as I know,
Don't infringe on anyone's copyright so,

This song we'll let be
This song is in E
This song is for you and...

This tune has nothing "Bright" about it (Bright was the name of a publishing company that sued Hari in the He's So Fine case)
This tune ain't good or bad and come ever what may
My expert tells me it's OK

This song came to me, quite unknowingly...

You get the idea. It's nearly impossible to come up with something truly original, especially working in a genre with such a rich history. And if you pull it off as well as Stray Cats, who really cares? The history fascinates me, but in the end, it's probably best to set such things aside and enjoy the music.

He's So My Sweet Lord-a-billy

Dammit, Geoff! Thanks to you, I can't listen to Rock This Town without singing the lyrics to Paralyzed! And then when there's no bridge on RTT, it aggravates me, 'cuz that's my favorite part of Paralyzed! ACK!!

It could be worse, I suppose. I could be singing the DeFranco Family's Heartbeat, It's a Lovebeat!

Lucky-Me-I'm-Singin'-Everyday-billy

Wow...Paralysed...Who knew! Very interesting. I've got a new one. If any of you are familiar with a Janis Martin song call "My Boy Elvis" (And I'm sure some of you are) many aspects of it are similar to "Hot Rod Gang" by the Cats. I guarantee Brian was "influenced" by this song from the chorus to the almost exact emulation of the guitar solo. Have a listen...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ewLqr-CZFA

Bigbassape wrote:

No offense taken, but I have been playing for over 20 years and I can and do play both songs. Aside from changing a couple of accents and adding some passing chords, the progression is the same. In fact, when my band did Paralyzed tonight, I played Lee' bass part just for kicks, and with the exception of the bridge it sat perfectly well. Our guitar player is actually the one who brought the similarities between the two songs to my attention a couple of years ago.

Paralyzed: Intro- I-I-I-I I-I-V-V I-I-IV-II I
Rock This Town: Intro- I-I-I-I I-I-V-V I-I-IV-II I
(rock this town does have the 1-3-4-4#-5 lick over the I section and adds the accent on II but its still the same progression)

I'm in no way bashing mr. setzer's writing, the melody is all his, and the execution makes it stand out on its own, but the similarities in the chord structure are undeniable.


cheers
g

Wow!

Just picked up the guitar and played both tunes.... You are SOOO right! The progression is identical. I have NEVER played Paralyzed before, and assumed it was a straight boogie. I fell foul of the very thing that Brian has been talking obout with Rock this Town.

Mikey Blackwell

Bigbassape wrote:

No offense taken, but I have been playing for over 20 years and I can and do play both songs. Aside from changing a couple of accents and adding some passing chords, the progression is the same. In fact, when my band did Paralyzed tonight, I played Lee' bass part just for kicks, and with the exception of the bridge it sat perfectly well. Our guitar player is actually the one who brought the similarities between the two songs to my attention a couple of years ago.

Paralyzed: Intro- I-I-I-I I-I-V-V I-I-IV-II I
Rock This Town: Intro- I-I-I-I I-I-V-V I-I-IV-II I
(rock this town does have the 1-3-4-4#-5 lick over the I section and adds the accent on II but its still the same progression)

I'm in no way bashing mr. setzer's writing, the melody is all his, and the execution makes it stand out on its own, but the similarities in the chord structure are undeniable.


cheers
g

Oh Man! I forgot to say sorry in my response... I love the way you passionately and politely point out my errors and back them up. Only a genuine gentlemen Brian Setzer fan would do that. Had you been a fan of another artiste, i would probablyh= heve been on the receiving end of "what the fuck are you talking about you English Prick".. But a true Setzer fan and accomplished musician has the most polite retort..

Mikey (School of Etiquette) x

brent wrote:

Wow...Paralysed...Who knew! Very interesting. I've got a new one. If any of you are familiar with a Janis Martin song call "My Boy Elvis" (And I'm sure some of you are) many aspects of it are similar to "Hot Rod Gang" by the Cats. I guarantee Brian was "influenced" by this song from the chorus to the almost exact emulation of the guitar solo. Have a listen...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ewLqr-CZFA

WOW! I'm SOOOO glad I opened this thread. That's amazing. The solo was almost identical.

Imagine fusing the two songs:

Gonna rip off the fenders and chop down the top, put her in gear and then she'll rock...MyBoy Elvis - haha

Mikey

Hey guys.Ain't nothin new.It's just new generations re writing old classics.I know it's only rock n roll but i like it.